I was talking to one of my friends and he mentioned staying home on July 4, citing how there are a lot of really ugly things going on in the US.
After thinking about this myself, I’m starting to feel the same way. Instead of being proud of the country, I’m feeling like I’m just another wallet that companies and the government are trying to suck all the money out of.
The cost of living is going up, the housing market is a nightmare, I don’t feel very confident in our government at all, the job market is a nightmare…
I think I’ll be staying home this year too… anyone else?
Not being American I always found the whole thing very creepy. Like, North Korean military parade-creepy.
For the record, we don’t have anything like that where I’m from, but the closest things we do have are also very creepy. Patriotism in general is extremely not cool, honestly.
I screencapped this many moons ago on Reddit, I feel that it’s apropos
The USA started cracking at the foundations when McCarthyism began, demonizing an ideology that was ultimately about sharing resources. You can draw a straight line between the Red Scare and the anti-socialism proudly shouted by modern Republicans and the MAGA movement today.
For anyone who identifies as conservative, this rabid vilification of socialism has rotted away at even the idea that the government should exist to service the people, let alone advocating for it. So instead they advocate for tearing it all apart and hold firm to the ‘rugged individialism’, “the Free Market © will provide” nonsense that has never worked as far back in history as we can peer.
Its so toxic, and it serves only the most wealthy. It’s gone so far and for so long now that I don’t see the lessons being learnt and course correcting with words alone.
It’s rooted in all that “American Exceptionalism” propaganda crap, for sure.
As an American I never really liked the holiday, (I agree patriotism sucks) but I wouldn’t say it’s that it really feels creepy other than the few people who really go over the top with it. Most people just use it as an excuse to barbeque and watch / light off fireworks (which I’m just personally not into)
Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.
Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.
America and North Korea aren’t alone in some kind of pledge for the country, are we? I have a memory of Chinese students doing the same type of thing, but I’m not entirely sure.
From a quick search it looks like India, Nigeria, Singapore, and the Philippines do as well.
Other countries may have pledges of some sort for special occasions or for new citizens. But having a flag in every classroom that children chant to each morning is not normal.
Look up why the pledge was incorporated in the first place. It was a scheme to sell small American flags and the pledge was made up to go with the flags. Once it was implemented in the classroom - profits were staggering. There was a SCOTUS ruling years ago that the pledge does NOT have to be done in the classroom, but most still do. I do not partake in my classroom and do not tell kids that have to. I do however tell the kids to be respectfully quiet while others do (if they wish).
I appreciate that you don’t tell kids that they have to participate, but honestly, even telling the others to be “respectfully quiet” seems a bit odd to me.
A democratic state is something you pledge allegiance to by actively participating, by making use of your democratic rights and by putting energy into building and shaping the system we all live in. That’s what democracy is meant to be, a system of all people working together and valuing the needs and opinions of others, working out the best solutions for everyone through discourse. It’s not a religion or a god that you pray to in silence, that’s a bit absurd, isn’t it?
“And valuing the needs and opinions of others” isn’t that exactly what I am doing by asking my students to respect that others can say the pledge if they want to? As much as I feel I don’t have a right to tell a kid to say the pledge - I would be a hypocrite if I told kids they couldn’t.
Yeah, I get that, and I think this is somehow a cultural difference. I didn’t mean to tell you that’s not what you’re supposed to do, sorry if it came across like that. I just thought it was interesting that to me, the whole idea of saying the pledge seems so strange, it reminds me of saying a prayer, and that somehow doesn’t match my understanding of a democratic system. I’m from Germany, by the way. We grow up with a very different relationship to our state compared to the US. I think it changed a bit in recent years (and I’m a bit undecided whether that’s a good thing or not), but when I was a kid, basically only nationalists and neonazis waved the German flag (that changed with the soccer worldcup in Germany in 2006). My school curriculum was filled with the crimes of the Third Reich, and I think what I took away from that was to never just worship or even trust a state or government just because it’s you own, because it may actually be or turn evil. And that it’s your responsibility as a citizen to not let that happen. Of course I do feel connected to my country and my culture, but I’m just very unfamiliar with the kind of connection that (many) Americans seem to have with their country. Again, I’m not trying to say it’s wrong per se, but to feel such an emotional connection to a democratic state that is meant to be shaped by the people for the people does feel feel a bit off to me, in the sense maybe that I see a risk of it leading people in a wrong direction. I don’t know. I hope that makes it a bit more understandable. I’d actually like to hear your opinion on that. Is my point of view understandable for you, or does it seem just as strange to you?
I understand completely. I personally do not say the pledge because I know where it comes from. I believe that this country is supposed to be a beacon of democracy. A government by the people for the people. I realized in my mid 40s that there are some people who still think that the POTUS is supposed to be like a king. That’s the opposite of what I learned in school (I am from New York State) and it does have me worried. I hope that we can move back that way because I agree the people are what makes a democratic type of government stronger. Our elected officials are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I fear that a great deal of them are working for corporate greed however. I teach the Holocaust in my classroom and I also teach about fascism. I look to Germany now with hope that people can survive a government that does wrong by them. In saying all of this - I am proud of the ideals that this country (and it’s flag) stand for, but in fear of being a hypocrite - I realize that one of the standards that the flag symbolizes is freedom. Freedom to say the pledge or not based on your own personal feelings and thoughts about what that flag means to you. I hope the kids are feeling proud of those ideals and not feeling nationalistic, but I need to teach them how to think and not to think like me, but to think for themselves. Peace fellow freedom chaser. I hope history keeps us allies.
Patriotism can be cool, there are (I hope) many things about your nation, it’s achievements and communities that you might be proud of.
Nationalism however, not so much. They’re closely related (and bad people will try to sneak Nationalism under the radar as Patriotism) but are very different things.
I don’t know that I agree with this.
Perhaps coming from a place where the notion of “country” and “nation” don’t overlap one to one makes it easier to see. I wouldn’t really be able to tell you what “my nation” even is, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I respect and take pride in culture in all its diversity and complexity, in democracy and in the general sense of human decency. Screw all the so-called nations trying to get me to vouch for them as a political unit, though. Political organization is for buiding roads and hospitals, not for pride.
Patriotism is very cool. Nationalism isn’t, which has mostly subverted the term patriot. A patriot stands up when their nation is doing something wrong. They don’t blindly believe they’re the best, they recognize that there’s things they can improve. They fight to make their country better, not to make others worse.
That’d be great if it didn’t disagree with all available evidence. For all of history patriots have been either cannon fodder or abusive tyrants. On a long enough trajectory, almost inevitably nationalists and eventually imperialists.
One could argue that, much like some flavors of political utopia, internationalism has the advantage of never having been implemented in any practical sense, so they have less of a challenge proving their positive impact, but I’ll take it anyway.
Regardless, I find that “making their country better” should be a distant second to “making the world better”, and perhaps a close third behind “making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better”.
Look, I am not a globalist anarchist. I believe in well structured, effective democratic governments. Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don’t have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It’s all administrative stuff as far as I’m concerned.
Regardless, I find that “making their country better” should be a distant second to “making the world better”, and perhaps a close third behind “making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better”.
I find this statement odd. So you think it’s best to start local, right? OK, so next from your immediate community, you should expand out, eventually to country, then to world, right? Isn’t that the logical progression. From more influence to less? Why is your priority jumping all over?
Look, I am not a globalist anarchist.
Funnily enough, I am an Anarchist. I don’t know if I’d call myself a globalist, but probably. I also believe in well structured democratic governments. Those aren’t at odds with each other.
Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don’t have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It’s all administrative stuff as far as I’m concerned.
I think we’re in agreement. This isn’t counter to what I said. I’d say it’s in unison with it. People should work to improve their governments in any way they can. They should try to reshape it to better represent them. That’s what a patriot would do, not just settle for the status quo and assume they’re the best possible version there can be.
Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?
Cause that’s what the word means.
I get it, particularly in countries where the nation state has overlapped more or less perfectly for a long time it’s hard to shed the emotional attachment, but there’s no need for it.
See, the reason I go from small to international is precisely that the nation state takes care of itself. The world has agreed that it’s the natural resting place of sovereignty and every other scale of governance or administration os derived from it. I don’t like that much. I don’t resent it, but I also don’t give it immediate precedence over any other scale of government.
A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I’m not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration. If anything, it’s the level where the most people decide to infringe on each other’s business just because they feel they have a right to ownership over that national identity. I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.
Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?
Cause that’s what the word means.
The land (and people), but not necessarily the state.
(The term state ahead is really annoying.)
Maybe part of it comes from being in the US, where we have a weird form of double governance of the “state” and “federal” governments. Which state are we loyal too, because they’re both ours? It makes things more malleable. The states could agree to form a totally new federal government if they wanted to.
A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I’m not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration.
There are multiple definitions of country. Some don’t care about the state that defines the borders. Your country is the land where you were born, not the state necessarily. One example that comes to mind in the US, which spans multiple states, is “Appalachia.” Appalachian people are a broad culture group who live in the Appalachian mountain region, and are distinct from the states they reside, and the larger US obviously. They are countrymen of each other.
I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.
No, the problem is some other people have changed the term to mean nationalist. For example, in the US, people were called patriots for fighting for the people in the colonies against the state that controlled them (Britain). They didn’t approve of the state and wanted to improve it, so they fought to change it and left the former state that was controlling them. Patriotism doesn’t have to be blind support of a state, and I’d argue that isn’t patriotism, because you aren’t defending it from bad actors/actions.
The etymology of the term is certainly much older than the nation-state, but also entirely disconnected from modern meanings (or ironic/facetious, which I do appreciate). There is just no original, clean, virtuous instance of “patriot” dislodged from the nationalist undertones. It simply has never existed.
The mistake you’re making is assuming that US revolutionaries weren’t nationalists or were praiseworthy or fundamentally different than British colonists. We’re going to disagree on that one. I mean, never mind that they didn’t invent the term or that their whitewashing of it was self-serving. Even if your timeline of events was true, I despise their patriotism as much as anybody else’s. US revolutionaries weren’t some ideal version of a patriot, they were nationalist independentists who happened to borrow some French revolutionary ideas about the liberal democratic state-nation organization slightly earlier than their previous administration did (and perhaps due to the first draft nature of the thing, slightly worse, too).
I won’t judge them by modern standards, but I also absolutely, entirely refuse to sacralize them or idealize them. They were what they were, and they are absolutely not the thing that’s going to give patriotism a good name.
You’re putting words in my mouth saying that I said American revolutionaries were great people. I never said such a thing, nor would I. Stop reading more into what I said than I actually said please.
They were people willing to lay their lives down for something they thought was worth fighting for. Not out of some ignorance that the status quo is the best option, but because they wanted to make changes to improve things for their community (and their self too, sure). That’s what patriotism is.
I’d argue that it’s necessarily not pristine. You have to be willing to get dirty. You don’t win a war with honor. You win it by killing other people until the other side isn’t fighting anymore. The same is true for any fight (not the killing necessarily, but being willing to do what needs to be done).
I just brought them up as an example of patriotism though. I’m not saying they’re a perfect example, just an example. This isn’t about the US, like you’re making it to be. You’re not arguing against the point. Your entire comment can be boiled down to “American revolutionaries are bad” but it doesn’t say really anything about patriotism.
Anyway, my point is, don’t let nationalists take the term. Maybe you don’t, but most people have positive opinions if the term. It’s easier and more useful to take the term back, because it isn’t necessarily a nationalist term. There are plenty of leftist patriots throughout history and the world. The right is good at using language as a weapon. We should be too, and we shouldn’t back off every time they try to use it.
Independence day celebrations are not unique to America.
In fact, the best ones are about independence from the US
Which ones are those?
Hmm let me see. True former colonies include Cuba, the Philippines and Liberia. The Panama Canal Zone. Hawaii was unceremoniously annexed, as were Guam and Puerto Rico. And a host of smaller islands.
In a broader sense, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq are also very happy they’re once again independent from the US.
In an even broader sense, most US allies are working for independence from the unreliable US as we speak.
I was asking which countries have independence days that celebrate independence from the US.
The Philippines celebrates their independence from Spain.
Vietnam celebrates their independence from France.
I won’t bother going on, but nice try though.
Hey you weren’t supposed to know that!
We have one of those, and it’d be creepy even if historically it wasn’t debatable that the event itself was for the better.
Fair enough, I just disagree. Gaining independence seems to me like a positive thing worth celebrating. I’m happy whenever I see an ex-colony celebrating their day.
Not saying we Americans don’t take it a little far, but hey, it’s the one day where you can be patriotic without that creepy vibe.
Yeah, well, that depends on who gained independence from whom and whether you think you’re independent now. Also on whether you’d be indepedendent from any guys who’d like to be independent from the now guys if they were to be independent.
See, political independence for a group requires that you align with the idea the group has of itself. I don’t know that I have that overlap with any particular political delineation, so I may need an organization a touch more nuanced than an independent, sovereign nation-state.
Also, gonna need some citation on the lack of creepy vibe, as mentioned above.
How many are on July 4?
What, exactly, should I be proud of?
A nation that is moving backwards on human rights, increasing wealth inequality, and got really “mask off” about supporting genocide. A nation that is inherently dysfunctional and wreathed in corruption.
Patriotism leads to nationalism and racism. Fuck patriotism.
Not necessarily. Problem is when patriotism is not defined positively through your countries achievments and striving for self improvement, but through negativity to other people.
The US patriotism evidently revolves around the latter, so does most patriotism i have witnessed in European countries. I cant speak for so many other countries as i havent visited them enough.
It’s been decades since I’ve cared about the 4th as an actual holiday. Now it’s just a day that I don’t have to work.
Good day to march on your White House, perhaps…
I thought about this too. In the past I used to go to protests because I felt that if our leaders saw the protest that they might change their mind about something.
Now, so many of our citizens are so insane, they think you won’t actually protest unless George Soros pays you. I also can’t picture Trump seeing a protest and saying “I think I’ll reconsider…” It feels more futile than ever.
It’s never futile. Sure, Trump will never listen, never care about anyone whose not himself, never face justice (crap, now you’re depressing me), but what about Al the minion who do his bidding. I mean, they’re evil too, but going deeper ….
This all can’t happen without supporters. Maybe it’s voters who are low information or easily manipulated finally seeing the truth. Maybe it’s federal employees feeling the support to do the right thing. Maybe it’s law enforcement growing shame at how they’ve been used. Maybe it’s judicial branch standing up from being marginalized and corporatized, fighting back against legalized bribery and corroded ethics at the highest court.
The billionaires big bill was passed in the senate on a tie breaker. It would have take only one more senator to be swayed. Big elections coming up in a little over a year- your peers might elect someone who will actually serve them. Various states and cities, corps and law firms are standing up for what’s right: maybe you can get one more
I haven’t been necessarily patriotic for a long time because why pledge allegiance to a single nation? The only reason I really care about July 4 is the fireworks. It’s more tradition than anything that I see them.
Anyways, both of his terms make me feel vindicated in not being patriotic in a country.
I’ve never felt patriotic. It’s not like I chose to be here and, frankly, the more I learned about the rest of the world, the more I dislike about my own home.
Also fireworks are boring af unless you’re manipulating them to be more dangerous and blowing things up. Like hammering down a whistler and tossing it into a porta potty where an ICE agent is taking a shit.
I haven’t felt patriotic for July 4 since I was a teenager. And I grow more aliented every year.
No. Though I’m not American which may impact that
that’s really unamerican of you
Fuck yeah
why celebrate independence day?
it was supposed to be about gaining independence from tyranny.
We’re back with kings and tyrants.
It’s been almost 20 years since I felt patriotic. I mostly just comfort the dog and hope the yahoos don’t accidentally burn my house down.
I still have hope, until I am forced to emigrate I won’t be giving up on us. This country at one point saved my ancestors from doom, I believe it can again. It’s actually the “America sucks” crowd we need the most. In the words of AOC: resist, make them make us.
Oh goodness no. America has fallen, what the fuck does July 4th mean.
I just want my day off so I can have morning sex with my partner and set fireworks off with my kids.
This is all I’ve talked about at work.
What are we supposed to take pride in specifically? I suppose pride in our resilience–there is great potential to learn from our repetitious failures surelyUnless a large protest is happening in my city, I’m not planning to be outside on July 4.
