- cross-posted to:
- leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- cross-posted to:
- leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
[dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing] I’m the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH
[dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing] Read theory you losers, you’re all WRONG
[dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing] Nuh-uh, I’m the only leftist here, you’re SHITLIBS
[the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]
[a confused nazi asks] Why… why are they still arguing?
You must log in or register to comment.
The antidote to infighting in my experience is organizing in ideologically diverse spaces. I’ve organized with liberals and all types of different leftists. It has left me with the perspective that all these people are good people that just want better for the world. It’s hard to get angry at them once you know them. Per usual the solution is to touch grass.
Grass is dangerous, specially if you have allergies. My advice is to never touch grass!
LOL as someone with significant autoimmune issues this rings to true.
The antidote to infighting in my experience is organizing in ideologically diverse spaces.
You are saying (correctly) that we need to organize in ways that appeal to more median voters, moderates, liberals and even conservatives around much broader initiatives that appeal to more populist ideas like wealth inequality, social programs to help poor neighborhoods, rebuilding infrastructure and creating more livable communities.
But people who read this are going to translate it as:
“They’re saying I should reach out to the Green/Primitivist Anarchists I banned from my discord server” or “Maybe we should include the Orthodox Marxist–Leninists even though we hate them”
Or even worse: “HOW DARE HE SUGGEST I COMPROMISE WITH MY OPPRESSORS I WILL RIP THROATS OUT”
We all have to live next to each other even if we get the best policy results and I think everyone on either side forgets this. This isn’t centerism, this is understanding that we have to rebuild together even if we don’t share objective realities, we have no choice in the matter. I think too many people get stuck in their algorithmic ideology bubbles and think “the revolution/race war is coming, and everything will be great after.”
Nobody is coming. Nobody is going to make it better. There is no secret cabal or underground movement, there will be no socialist revolution. What we see is what we get and if we want it better, we need to get a LOT better about getting our shitty emotions under control, learning to socialize and using our energy wisely.
The opposite is the case. What worked historically is organizing in an ideologically united platform.
Vanguard parties won revolutions. Ideologically diverse big tent organizations have always eventually broken apart and none has brought a revolution thus far.
And working with liberals has never been a good idea. They’re not a part of the left, they belong to a right wing ideology. That would be like saying we should work together with Nazis, because after all they have socialist in their name.
You’re right, BUT it will never happen. Hearing different perspectives and understanding other viewpoints will not only broaden your horizons, but it will also deradicalize you… but the people who you are asking to do this are the radicals who are allergic to ideologically diversity. Purity testing is one of the hallmark defining traits of the modern left, and the further left you go the more extreme it gets. The far left will excommunicate anybody who doesn’t agree with on just about everything. You simply can’t have a serious movement with this type of mentality being as prominent as it is.
The only thing that matters is policy, I’ll work with anyone as long as it’s toward an egalitarian society with wealth redistribution.
Labels are nice for classifying, but not for executing. I don’t care if you identify as leftist, or liberal, or progressive; I care if you support good policies.
Yeah, but the question ultimately lies in how many bad and straight up harmful policies are worth the small step toward an egalitarian society? Where does it become ignoble to vote for one policy, when there are ultimately many more harmful ones outweighing the positive? Because it’s kinda rare that we get to vote on policy. We vote for people, with the vague promise of policy ideas that face an uphill battle and watering down— not to mention the straight up bastardization of those good policies, turning them into terrible ones.
I wish it were so black and white as us getting to vote on policy. The policymakers surely seem to be unable.
The issue is that you’re a minority in your camp. Broadly speaking, the left sees compromise as weakness, neutrality as cowardice, working with opposition towards a common cause as treachery. These are all symptoms of purity testing, and it’s the reason why the left in so many places is completely paralyzed.
How do you know that isn’t confirmation bias? We have no idea how many leftists there are that see purity testers and decide to not engage.
It’s a similar to MAGA in a way. MAGA’s biggest problem, as an ideology, is that it revolves around blind loyalty to a single idiot and therefore the entire movement starts and stops with his whims, no matter how contradictory, damaging, or nonsensical. You could say it’s confirmation bias that I have this opinion, but I think given recent events, this opinion does have a basis of fact to it. The same applies to the left when it comes to purity testing. It’s really not hard to see how prominent purity testing is in leftist discourse.
It’s really not hard to see how prominent purity testing is in leftist discourse.
That’s not what I’m asking, I’m saying you can’t judge now many people are not engaging in purity testing.
You could say it’s confirmation bias that I have this opinion, but I think given recent events, this opinion does have a basis of fact to it
That’s exactly what confirmation bias is. “All the toupees I see are bad, therefore, all toupees are bad.” Confirmation bias with a basis of fact to it, still completely ignoring the toupees you don’t notice.
That’s not what I’m asking, I’m saying you can’t judge now many people are not engaging in purity testing.
That’s a moot point. First of all, I’m not casting judgement, I’m simply pointing out the state of leftist unity. You can’t deny that purity testing is a huge element in leftist discourse, and if you are going to anyway then you’re simply not being honest. It doesn’t matter how self identifying leftists do or don’t purity test, the point is that enough do where it’s a cornerstone of leftist culture.
That’s exactly what confirmation bias is. “All the toupees I see are bad, therefore, all toupees are bad.” Confirmation bias with a basis of fact to it, still completely ignoring the toupees you don’t notice.
That’s not what confirmation bias is. Confirmation bias is when you actively seek out information that support your preexisting beliefs. My opinion is not confirmation bias, but a simple observation.
First of all, I’m not casting judgement
boy you really aren’t understanding what I’m saying if you think that’s how I was using “judge”
I did misread your comment, and I apologize for that but my point still stands. We’re not doing a survey here, we’re simply observing the current state of leftist culture and discourse in society. Looking at the the left right, can you say that purity testing is prominent element of it? It’s a simple yes or no question, and I think the answer is a yes if we’re being honest.
hear, hear
I’ll work with anyone as long as it’s toward an egalitarian society with wealth redistribution.
Okay, but here me out? What if we just privatize the mechanism of wealth redistribution? Also we’re going to be spending a bunch of money on foreign wars, but don’t worry - this time the people were fighting are ontologically evil, we promise. Yes, we will have to make deep cuts to social services in order to pay for the war (while still running enormous deficits because haha, psych, deficits don’t matter), but it will be vital to get the Moderate Conservative on board with our program.
Also, we control every branch of government, but we still need to compromise with fascists in the opposition.
Okay, why are you leaving? You’re clearly not serious about progressive reforms.
And STOP SAYING NICE THINGS AND CHINA! This is a red line we will not tolerate!
You know what? You’re not serious. We’re forming a coalition with Liz Cheney. See you in the losers bracket next year.
…
You’re the reason we lost control of the government.
…
Okay, now stop voting for a popular leftist mayor, or we’ll burn this whole party down.
The idea that all “leftists” should just work together is stupid.
Leninism, Anarcho-primitivism and Social democracy (for example) are not different approaches to “leftism” that ultimately want the same things; they are completely separate ideologies that naturally come into conflict. The people who follow them disagree with each other because they want and value completely different things. If they were to put aside their differences there would be nothing left.
That doesn’t mean arguing on the internet about ideology is meaningful, or that there can’t be common goals or enemies, just that you should give up the idea that all “leftists” are somehow natural allies, because it doesn’t make any sense.
I believe you are missing the forest for the trees. First, I acknowledge your examples are separate ideologies.
That concept also applies to the right… social conservatives, right-libertarians, and neoliberal ideologies are equally separate. However, those practitioners have no qualms about banding together to suppress dissent (or until such time they are the only voices).
Where the left leaning practitioners are unable to do so, they will be forever tyrannized by the banded majority.
To put it more succinctly, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (when freedom is on the line).
This. They act like they’re giving up fringe beliefs to keep the consensus more left. It’s isolating and alienating
It does help that the overarching theme of the right is centered around taking as much for yourself as possible and not caring about the collateral damage. The right is full of single-issue voters who might, say, not actually explicitly hate gay people but who also don’t give a shit about their rights and safety if it means they can keep their guns. The left, almost definitionally, needs to consider the complexity inherent in not being able to ignore the effects that any given policy might have on others and this means that there is so much more opportunity for conflict.
You’re correct, of course, I’m just pointing out the difference such that it might help attack the issue from a better perspective.
Where the left leaning practitioners are unable to do so, they will be forever tyrannized by the banded majority.
You are assuming no ideological changes of opinion are possible or useful.
People that vote right wing aren’t better off just because they voted that way. They’re not tyrants oppressing the left, they’re fellow citizens who get oppressed just as much. Their vote for the winning team doesn’t win them anything.
The solution to right-wing banding isn’t left wing banding, it’s disbanding the right wing by showing its voters that they’re being had. And that takes a cohesive and functional alternative.
Leftist “infighting” is healthy. It’s a process of discovering these alternatives, and it regularly churns out consensus issues such as consent-based queer rights, veganism, not funding genocide, and how the US government is now fascist.
Over time these issues get normalized through leftist action until liberal centrists rewrite the histories as if they are responsible for producing them through liberal democracy.
To put it more succinctly, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (when freedom is on the line).
Daily reminder that the DNC does not acknowledge that the US government is now fascist. Uniting under a common front doesn’t mean we fight fascism together, it means we canvas for votes until we’re black bagged one by one.
Ultimately it is important to vote in every election for a candidate that has a good chance of actually getting in to represent you, but that is just one day every year or two. Everything else should be dedicated to finding and testing these alternatives.
K.
Leninism, Anarcho-primitivism and Social democracy (for example) are not different approaches to “leftism” that ultimately want the same things; they are completely separate ideologies that naturally come into conflict.
In a fascist dictatorship, they have a lot more in common than opposition. What’s more, there’s ample room for compromise when members of these caucuses are able to communicate and collaborate freely.
The biggest hurdle to Left Unity I consistently see is Liberal Wreckers stepping in to insist any one ascendant philosophy is unserious and counterproductive, right before they form a coalition with corporationists and fascists.
you should give up the idea that all “leftists” are somehow natural allies
There’s a material basis of alliance that stems from the communities that form the base of each faction.
The idea that a Social Democrat like Lulu or Sheinbaum can’t form coalition with Anarcho-Prim native people in the rural Brazilian/Southern Mexican territories is demonstrably untrue.
The idea that a Leninist like Castro or Mandela couldn’t lead a popular Socialist revolution in Cuba or South Africa is demonstrably untrue.
The idea that Bookchin-style Eco-socialists can’t find allies in Xi’s China or among the Maoist factions of North India is demonstrably untrue.
It takes work and it takes the right historical moment, but not everything has to end like the Spanish Civil War. Left Alliance isn’t some impossible dream.
In a fascist dictatorship, they have a lot more in common than opposition.
But if the dictatorship is a communist one they have more in common with the nazis! Or if your country is invaded by Russia you might find yourself fighting side by side with the Azov battalion.
There are libertarians who genuinely care about free speech and might make useful allies on those issues.
Just because someone is the enemy of your enemy, or an occasionally useful ally, doesn’t mean you want to unify with them.
It’s why ranked choice is the only sane voting approach. First past the post heavily favors right wing authoritarians.
Hell yea I would love to vote for the people I actually want to vote for
“Voting is actually bad” Tankies 🤝 Nazis
“My own entitlement and vindictive emotional state is far more important than broad policy measures to make the best outcomes for the most people.” - Tankies 🤝 Nazis
edit: I will forever smirk that over a third of the people who read this felt “Well they don’t understand that MY emotions are special, the unrealistic things I want are more important than any of those other things! How dare they equate my feelings with those of nazis, those creatures weren’t even human, unlike me!”
“I support genocide”
Anti-tankies 🤝 Nazis
" The Holo-incident is not THAT bad" Tankies 🤝 Nazis
Comparing a famine caused by poor harvests across eastern europe and exacerbated by poor management to the fucking holocaust is wild.
Not just wild, also a form of Holocaust denial.
Literally only tankies are stupid enough to believe old Soviet Propaganda about how Holodomer was not a genocide. when it clearly was.
Well you can either look at the now public soviet archives to see what the government was saying to themselves, you know primary sources, and plenty of historians who cite those or you can accept what anti-communists with no primary sources and a weird tendency to rehabilitate nazi-collaborators say.
“poor management” is one hell of a way to put it.
I mean, even the Holocaust could also be said to boil down to poor management if we’re just doing shitty arguments.
Man, tankie really doesn’t mean anything anymore does it?
whelp, straight to infighting.
This is why far “left” and “right” are itself misguided labels. It’s more like far opposite on the other end where they meet.
Horseshoe theory is literally just
Idk why you’re downvoted, horseshoe theory has proven to be correct over time. There’s that much that separates Marxist Leninist authoritarianism and Fascist authoritarianism
Horsehoe theory is misguided itself, it was pitched purely to distance liberalism from fascism when historically they are linked, and to demonize those who support collectivization over privatization. Read Blackshirts and Reds.
Liberalism is antithetical to fascism both ideologically and historically. Literally only online Marixsts are ignorant enough to think that liberalism is just fascism lite.
For almost all of human history, the current center of the the western Overton window would have been considered far, far left. Does that mean that monarchism and feudalism is the true center, and liberalism is actually the same as being to the far right of monarchism?
The modern left-right political spectrum only makes sense in a modern sense. Trying to apply it like it’s some sort of universal law is stupid. Monarchism, for example, can’t be placed on the spectrum because there are different types of monarchies that are radically different from each other and there are different monarchs within each of those systems that are radically different from each other.
Ranked-choice voting is a decent choice for uninominal elections.
Proportional elections are a popular alternative, and they are arguably fairer than even RCV because they are not susceptible to gerrymandering or votes otherwise being weighted by geography (i.e. your vote still matters just as much as anyone’s if you live in Redneckville, Mississippi). They do have other downsides though.
Unfortunately here in Belgium we do proportional voting and the Prime Minister is nonetheless a far-right separatist in charge of a right-wing coalition so, uh, maybe FPTP is not the only thing that stands between the citizenry and a communist utopia lol
Yeah, pretty much this.
Going over the comments I already see boat loads of people completely missing the point where right wing extremism is taking hold thanks in part due to the constant bickering.
I’m anti authoritarian and anti right. Tankies are leftists that I have no interest in getting along with. They are just as excited to be holding the gun in this comic
Exactly, all authoritarians (far left/far right) can suck a big fat one. They are always the best boot lickers.
Yes, Unity cannot be enforced. Unity can only coexist with consent. And those that would violate consent to enforce Unity actually despise both.
This person has previously advocated for hanging people for treason.
Yes, leninists are nominally on the left. Nominally. However throughout history most similar ideologies have consistently exterminated executed and oppressed everyone that ever disagreed with them. Allies or not. Left or right. Which makes them authoritarian and untrustworthy first. Left at their convenience.
As an anarchist, I have no major beef with actual communist. While I will disagree a lot with demsoc or socdems. I have no issue allying with them where we agree. Because even though we disagree, on the things we agree on. I know they are just as committed, and won’t turn on us the moment it’s convenient.
But I’m all too familiar with the type that behave like the comic. I think we all are. Anyone using the term shitlib or blue maga for instance.
As an anarchist
You aren’t an anarchist though, you’ve never actually expressed anarchists beliefs: you’re a hard core DNC supporter and liberal. There’s a reason your main complaint is people using terms like “shitlib” and “bluemaga”, because those are what you are.
Removed by mod
I do it all the time.
I literally never see it, but I do often see you saying things that are explicitly incompatible with anarchism.
Who’s shitty hot takes are regularly posted on and laughed at in many communities
“We make fun of you in our secret tree house that you aren’t allowed in” is not the sick burn you think.
I could give you 10 to 13 calling them out.
And for every one tepid, qualified criticism of the democrats you offer, I could you give 20 of you viciously tearing into the left for not supporting the democrats enough.
However terminally online little trolls like yourself aren’t interested in facts or reality. And your disapproval is a badge of honor.
Oh my god, go back to Reddit you insufferable dweeb. You’re really doing the “facts and logic” bullshit?
Damn, this is some serious beef if y’all are taking it between posts.
Surely internet arguments are siloed to the post. I literally remember none of the usernames of people I’ve had arguments with haha
They would also tell me to my (virtual) face that they think my country has no right to exist, so that too makes it pretty hard to have any sort of productive collaboration.
No communist thinks any country has a “right to exist”.
This “anti-authoritarian” recently called for mass execution of their enemies.
Me? Is this because I said the SS should have been executed?
Are you now going to argue that that isn’t an authoritarian act because it was justified? Because, guess what, every “authoritarian” believes their actions are justified
Protecting Jewish and other minorities rights to live and safety is not an authoritarian act. It is in fact protecting the most vulnerable’s liberty. Anti authorization is not lawless. You are a very weird little person and I have no interest in trying to convince you Nazis are bad. I hope you can figure that one out on your own
I believe what @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml is getting at is that all states are authoritarian, and that there are positive and negative uses of authority. Executing SS officers is a positive use of authority. Since all states are an extension of the ruling class, it is better for that ruling class to be the proletariat, rather than the bourgeoisie, and for the proletariat to use its authority to oppress the bourgeoisie and gradually sublimate capital until all production is collectivized, class ceases to exist, and by extension the state withers away, leaving only administration, management, etc.
No I’m pretty sure they pulled something from another post to try to misrepresent it because they’re a bitter terminally online loser. That is a very generous interpretation though
I’m saying it because I’ve seen them make the same argument, as I have done myself, in different ways.
I don’t care what someone calls themselves as long as they oppose fascism and understand that the only place where Pedophiles are welcome is the inside of a wood chipper.
I can understand the emotional impulse, but i would change it to “active pedophiles”. They can’t really choose what arouses them, but they can choose not to act on those impulses - that is what counts. This distinction is important, because i would very much prefer if inactive pedophiles (who probably beat themselves up constantly, leading to emotional instability, depression and therefore a higher risk of becoming active) had easy access to ressources to help them stay inactive like therapy or the equivalent to Narcotics Anonymous.
this is terminally online behavior. Marxists I’ve run into in actual organizing work are generally pretty chill and more interested in the work than trying to tell me I have the wrong opinion.
Anyone complaining about “tankies” when there’s actual Nazis around is doing their work for them.
No. I’ve seen marxist-leninists, maoists, and anyone in that area of thought arguing the following:
- LGBTQ+ identities are bourgeois degeneracy
- Trans people are a capitalist invention to divide workers
- Nazis have a point when it comes to nationalism
- Assad and Putin are leftists
- Anarchism has never been tried successfully (because every time someone tried they got betrayed by MLs and executed by them for wrongthink)
- Animal Farm is capitalist propaganda
- Killing millions of people is necessary for a better world
- States are 100% necessary for the development of socialism
- China is communist or will be communist by 2050
- Ukraine is a Nazi state who deserves to be invaded
- Russia taking children from Ukraine and relocating them is just them being nice and removing them out of the warzone
- Anarchists are all children who don’t know better
- The socialist state must uphold “traditional values”
- Stalin exclusively killed Nazis
- The only valid leftist theory is the one that argues Marxism-Leninism is correct
- “Socialist” police are a good thing because they don’t serve capital, they serve the people
- Leftists who don’t agree with us are enemies of the revolution and should be enslaved because they will attempt to overthrow our successful socialist state
If you think ANY of those arguments are valid for leftism, then I’m sorry, but I don’t want you around me.
I have literally never run into anyone in real life who says any of these as any form of communist, other than ‘communist’ parties full of pensioners or maga communists.
spoiler
- LGBTQ+ identities are bourgeois degeneracy
- Trans people are a capitalist invention to divide workers
- Nazis have a point when it comes to nationalism
- Assad and Putin are leftists
- Killing millions of people is necessary for a better world
- The socialist state must uphold “traditional values”
- “Socialist” police are a good thing because they don’t serve capital, they serve the people
- The only valid leftist theory is the one that argues Marxism-Leninism is correct
- Stalin exclusively killed Nazis
I have run into people saying things like this:
spoiler
-
Anarchism has never been tried successfully
-
Anarchists are all children who don’t know better
and I’ll push back on it, but it’s not a monolith, Marxists with decent enough social skills to not insult allies do exist
Animal farm is propaganda, by a social democrat with a clear agenda.
Believe it or not, these are almost never relevant to actual organizing work:
spoiler
- China is communist or will be communist by 2050
- Ukraine is a Nazi state who deserves to be invaded
- Russia taking children from Ukraine and relocating them is just them being nice and removing them out of the warzone
- States are 100% necessary for the development of socialism
Real life marxists tend to be okay, I don’t mind them. But, online those people literally try to dominate ALL discourse in leftism to the point where every single contact people have with leftists is someone who believes those things unironically.
No, you’re just strawmanning
They never said RL. That is a very specific and self aware cop-out. You know as well as we do, the ml servers are known for this for good reason.
Being fully transparent .world has their shit heads too. As do most other servers. However to the best of my knowledge they tend not to be administrators etc. 🤷♂️
They never said RL.
My original comment at the start of this thread was:
this is terminally online behavior. Marxists I’ve run into in actual organizing work are generally pretty chill
This is in a thread about getting murdered IRL by fascists while bickering. I think real life is relevant.
I then get the litany of online behaviors that people engage in, including a lot of stuff that has no basis in reality outside of trolls and crypto-fascists.
The shit I get from some people because of what instance I happen to use is literally the thing depicted in the comic though:
I can’t take anything you say in good faith if you willingly use that space.
At some point actually fighting fascism requires realizing that it’s a lot easier to work with communists and anarchists despite whatever disagreements you have, because as different ideologically as we may be, that distinction doesn’t matter to our enemies.
First I agree that marxists are generally chill it’s the hyphenated ones that typically are not. And because we can agree on that. I think we should be able to agree that they aren’t who is being pictured above in the comic.
Perhaps it was misunderstanding, perhaps it was talking past each other. Either way fair enough.
Others get the same treatment. I can count plenty of times where I’ve been told similar because I post from a .world domain. The difference being, of course correct me if I am wrong. That our administrators don’t tend to be as problematic. It isn’t 2019 anymore. ML isn’t the only server. If you are focused on organization and outreach. Maybe it’s worth considering finding a new instance that would would help in fostering that.
As I syndicist I absolutely gave some thought about joining an instance that better reflected my sensibilities. Though some recent events have definitely made me reconsider on that. I honestly think I’m happy an a much more diverse platform. Even if on the fediverse our diversity is pretty homogenic.
course correct me if I am wrong. That our administrators don’t tend to be as problematic
You are wrong, one hundred percent wrong. But you already know that the administrators of .world are Zionist liberals, but you don’t care because you agree with them.
If you are focused on organization and outreach. Maybe it’s worth considering finding a new instance that would would help in fostering that.
I’m not trying to be glib, I don’t think any instances are good for that, I use other platforms with more reach for that sort of thing.
I come here because I can see what other anarchists and Marxists are saying about the news and shoot the shit with them. Plus I can access the largest trans instances from here, I don’t really have any ambitions beyond that.
Fair enough. I can do that as well. Just without all the domain baggage. And if it is something that bothers you. It’s something to look at. Something I saw you actually cop to elsewhere on the topic.
This is literal ruling class propaganda. No Marxist or Marxist-Leninist is against LGBT, thinks Nazis or nationalism has a point, claims Putin is leftist, etc.
Stop trying to stir division, astroturf.
How about I talk about every time Marxist-Leninists betrayed other leftists and executed them? It’s an extensive fucking list.
Also, just look it up. You will find examples of what I said within minutes. But if you wanna be lazy, go ahead.
You’re just an astroturf. You are what’s a stop to any temporary left unity, not those who you accuse with ridiculous strawmen.
I’m not uniting with people who will kill me later. We’ve done that multiple times. Your ilk always betrays us.
Sounds like you’re the one betraying us
Saying this while shaking hand with Hitler, voting for the Nazi’s enabling act.
“Heh I’ve really shown those socialists this time.”
Lol. Please present a single example of someone actually holding these views. This is the most obviously nonsense strawman in history, but everyone here will upvote it anyway because it lets them punch left.
One of the Lemmy Devs was saying that being transgender was promoted by the bourgeois
Now do the rest
Is possible, just maybe, that you’ve been talking to trolls posing as communists, rather than actual communists? Because that’s what it sounds like.
Are you saying nutomic is a troll?
Most communist don’t identify as that because of the way leninist and Maoist have soiled it.
I don’t want to put you out, but if you’ve got actual links to him saying dodgy stuff, then please could you show me?
I’m about ten minutes into reading through his Reddit comments and he’s not even said anything political. One of the most recent comments was him replying to an accusation of creating the federated wiki alternative for right-wing purposes, which is confusing me even more.
He’s specifically telling people which instances they can join that block lemmygrad.
He doesn’t seem that extreme. If you can provide something, it’d really be appreciated, because from looking at his posts so far, he seems a nice enough guy.
Edit - never mind, I think I’ve found what you’re referring to. I’ll look through them properly in a little bit.
I’m not so focused to keep lists Etc myself. However if you are interested in learning a bit more about it all. There are actually a few communities dedicated to it. Don’t just take anything there as gospel though. Critical thinking is always good to employ. And even then it might just come down to who you decide you want to believe. However massive amounts of hypocritical behavior to me would indicate less trustworthiness.
Meanwhileongrad has a lot of it. Just bear in mind. Where people will stand is often more about what they do than even what they say.
So no, he didn’t say that, you’re just lying
Nutomic has not said those things: now you’re straight up lying to justify left punching.
Those people were not being ironic, no. I think it’s just a phenomenon that is excessively more common amongst internet MLs. Real life MLs are okay for the most part. Internet MLs are pretty much a cult that will try to take over ANY leftist community or be the dominant form of leftist discourse through any means necessary and will excessively push propaganda from literal fascists because they happen to be against liberals.
All I’m saying is that an embarrassing amount of leftists are terminally online and unable to do anything to try to push leftism other than argue with liberals online and spout hate towards those they see as “betraying” leftism. Those people don’t actually do any organization IRL, which to me is a blessing… but sometimes that doesn’t work. Brazil, and by extension all of South America, has a very bad problem with MLs dominating online AND IRL discourse, making it hard for other forms of leftism to be considered or even debated in good faith.
“those people” aren’t real, you just made them up so you can punch left
You’re from .ml, your opinion on tankies is coming from inside the house.
Frankly history has shown what happens to leftists who side with tankies. I for one will never be making that mistake again.
You’re from .ml
I’m an anarchist, I have done anarchist organizing for years.
I’m not going to argue on the validity of that, but you’re using .ml; Where the dev-admins themselves deny genocide and spout transphobic hate.
I can’t take anything you say in good faith if you willingly use that space.
I’m trans and not a fan of what nutomic has said either, but have had no issues with any of the other admins. I certainly haven’t seen those comments reflect in how they moderate, I even got made a mod here because I was calling out and reporting transphobia.
If he says anything like that in a comm I control I’ll be banning him myself though.
Lol, in a post condemning leftist infighting, people are up voting people attacking other leftists for being from the wrong instance
No, we are attacking people for hanging out in an
Naziauthie genocide denying transphobe bars.I’m more interested in top vs bottom than left vs right.
I’m more interested in top vs bottom
Yeah man, .ml is definitely the ruling class. For sure.
This is an odd take just considering World War 2 is like the example of unity against a common genocidal threat: the Nazis.
Yeah and that only happened after years of the Nazi party being in power in Germany. And they even got Sudetenland as appeasement by France and Britain without the consent of Czechoslovakia. France and Britain only gave a fuck after Poland was invaded while the rest of Europe tried to stay neutral. And later Italy joined the Nazi. Europe wasn’t very united against the Nazi. Unity of the allies only happened after hundreds of thousands civilians were already executed. Before the invasion of Poland the Nazi executed political opponents and rounded up the Jews in Germany and the world didn’t do shit about it.
There were no anarchists left in the USSR.
The Soviet Union was established before the Nazis existed. There was no need to ally with anarchists against them when they didn’t exist yet and waged war.
A better example would be the Spanish civil war where communists, liberals and anarchists did fight on the same side until infighting broke out due to an ineffective and non-authorative government. Meaning they failed to establish a leading ideology which could have prevented this.
And the Soviets allied with Nazi Germany and carved up Poland with their new buddies.
The communists were never “buddies” with the Nazis. The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that.
When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler.
Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated:
If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances.
Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis.
Not gonna mention the Secret Protocol in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that enabled the partition of Poland and the Baltics?
Or that Stalin actually fell for it all, trusted Hitler, disregarded all evidence of Nazi troop buildup until the day of Operation Barbarossa? Then Stalin spent weeks disappeared from public view.
Credit to the Soviets for defeating the Nazis. WW2 would have been lost without them. But they also acted as imperialists in reattaching Tsarist colonies to Russia, dividing Poland and the Baltics with Hitler, invading Finland, not to mention all the puppet states created postwar.
No, because there was never an agreement about partitioning. It was about spheres of influence, which Nazi Germany broke, and further the USSR entered Poland weeks after the Nazis invaded in order to prevent the entirety of Poland from falling to the Nazis, largely sticking to areas only a few decades prior Poland had invaded and annexed.
There’s also no evidence the Soviets didn’t expect the Nazis to invade. They didn’t get the timeframe right, but they expected it the entire time. And no, the Soviets weren’t imperialist.
Liberals will never forgive the USSR for not letting the Nazis have all of Poland.
0·15 days agoIt’s interesting to read that article on sci-hub. It’s giving more specific details on what happened in 1939, but is otherwise in line with The Cold War & Its Origins. You don’t need access to classified documents to understand the world, you can sit there in 1961 and get shit more or less right.
Yep! Just having a fairly consistent and coherent understanding of the world is usually sufficient to get things more right than not, not everyone needs to be a grandmaster-level Marxist-Leninist with decades of reading and practice to view the world in a constructive way. Theory and practice is still necessary, but even liberals can acknowledge reality.
Yeah that’s why they’re stupid. I think it’s more of an astroturf op
Definitely more of a problem online where everyone is competing to be “right” as if there is any one actual answer.
Even empathetic people still want simple answers and are willing to be pretty cruel to protect theirs.
Oh also really funny comic, love the punchline timing. Can really feel it.
Thanks a lot! 💝
This thread keeps popping up and it just clicked and I had to ask:
Is the guy in the red shirt supposed to be Vaush?
It’s the factory preset look for these pseudo-tankies that show up in my local activism group every now and then.
Always the big earring, unkempt beard, this specific shape of glasses, and the cheap aliexpress t-shirt with a political message on it.
Not my fault Vaush stole the look!
pseudo-tankies
I’m not even sure whether this is supposed to be an insult anymore. Is a “tankie” better or worse than a “fake tankie”?
In a thread complaining about leftist infighting, there’s a special irony in liberals singing out a leftist who is simultaneously too far left and not far left enough.
It’s a specific type of leftist we have in my country, french communists are a… special breed, let’s say.
In the 1980s our communist party bulldozed a migrant worker dormitory because they hated migrants that much. Red MAGA or something. The party recovered from that era, but french communists are still chauvinistic, xenophobic, and strangely not that much into anti-imperialism (which is meant to be the redeeming quality of tankies). They do however share with tankies the traits of applying “class first” logic to a lot of conversations, which makes them deathly allergic to intersectionality, and being terminally online and way into infighting. Thus they usually end up booted from actual activist groups, since they tend to hold us back and prevent us from actually getting shit done in the streets.
Hence me calling them pseudo-tankies because it’s hard to label them. We just call them tankies here: they’re members of a party that supported the crushing of the hungarian uprising with soviet tanks, and is ambiguous about tienanmen (no denying it happened but very alt-history about it), so pro-tanks they are.
I have an easier time getting along with the average online american tankie than with our local communist party’s members.
chauvinistic, xenophobic, and strangely not that much into anti-imperialism
Sounds like Nazbol to me.
I looked it up, and yep, looks like the PCF abandoned Marxism-Leninism in 1979 and adopted Eurocommunism, which is a vulgarization of Marxism that upholds western imperialism. MLs would consider them to be patsocs, same as the American Communist Party which espouses “MAGA Communism.”
I thought maga communism was a joke.
Would be funny considering how much Vaush hates Marxism-Leninism.
A professor in college once said something that stayed with me. He said that “bad ideologies will always find ways to self implode”.
This stuck with me because it’s true. Good ideologies tend to be pragmatic and flexible, and so they’re able to adapt and evolve. However, bad ideologies tend to be more rigid and focus mostly on theories and ideals, and therefore they’re unable to adapt or evolve. Far left ideologies firmly fall in the latter category which is why they are where they are.
interesting u should say that. theres actually this political system that someone used complex systems analysis to create in an adaptable, yet stable way. very much like the evolutionary process.
if ur interested, its this series, particularly part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvwoHdNGq9wVweGZ5bj5ZxFYulL_Xll_z
Ok seriously, on a comic level, I just cant stop looking at the action bubble of that fight and just love it. Would look so good on a shirt or pin. Its got classic pop art vibes.
You caught me: I spent a lot of time working on getting that bit juuuust right because because I’m going to get it printed on a mug and gift it to a couple people who’ll love it. Glad you liked it, it means I did it right!
Making t-shirts and merch is my sidequest when drawing smuggies. I don’t sell them, it’s just for self-wear, I’ve got an entire wardrobe of them by now. The one I’m wearing today :
You not to are immune propaganda
Jokes aside I’d wear that outside lol
It was the glasses and the little lightning bolts that gave it away as to all the work put into it. Honestly if you put it on a mug I’d say still leave the nazi and the punch line on a parallel line. It really hits.
And making your own punk/pop art wearables is very classic and if you havent heard Of them your style reminds me a bit of OSGEMEOS though far less surreal.
I feel like the nazis should be congratulating themselves on sowing discord, distracting those that could resist with bullshit
The infighting amongst the left is entirely self inflected
