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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml to Socialism@lemmy.mlEnglish · 1 year ago

Name one successful communist nation!

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Name one successful communist nation!

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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml to Socialism@lemmy.mlEnglish · 1 year ago
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  • Jeremy List@hachyderm.io
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    1 year ago

    @Radical_EgoCom @NoiseColor @yogthos immediate transition is not only possible in theory but actually has some precedent (although so far it’s only happened in the wrong place and time to last at scale for more than a few years). On the other hand expecting a transitional state to actually continue the transition is even less rational than expecting Jesus to show up and start helping.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      The actual reason anarchist experiments always fail is because they lack organization and structure necessary to keep them going. Maybe if spent some time to learn what a state is, then you wouldn’t feel the need to make inane statements like this.

      • Aatube@kbin.melroy.org
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        1 year ago

        The actual reason most anarchist places fail is because they lack military power. Places that are actually recognized like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania still run today.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 year ago

          These things go hand in hand. Military power requires organization, ability to create industry, build factories, have a trained workforce, and so on. Creating these things requires having some form of central planning and authority. This is an excellent read on the subject incidentally https://dashthered.medium.com/where-do-tanks-come-from-8723ff77d83b

          • Jeremy List@hachyderm.io
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            1 year ago

            @yogthos @Aatube “creating these things requires having some form of central planning and authority” is literal superstition.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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              1 year ago

              👆 How to say you’re historically illiterate without saying you’re historically illiterate.

              • Jeremy List@hachyderm.io
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                1 year ago

                @yogthos no, your superstitions are not “history”, they’re just superstitions.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                  1 year ago

                  Repeating nonsense over and over isn’t going to make it true buddy. Feel free to provide examples of anarchism working in practice though.

      • Jeremy List@hachyderm.io
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        1 year ago

        @yogthos oh look, the anti-communist is back proclaiming knowledge of another subject he clearly hasn’t bothered to research.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 year ago

          When you definitely understand what communism is. 😂

    • Sarcasmo220@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      On the other other hand, choosing to stay in a capitalist system and expecting to be treated like a human being is less rational than expecting God even cared enough to want to help in the first place.

      • Jeremy List@hachyderm.io
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        1 year ago

        @Sarcasmo220 choosing a “transitional state” is literally choosing to stay in the capitalist system, so yes thank you for making my point for me.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 year ago

          Capitalism is a system where people who own capital exploit the working class to create more wealth for themselves. A system where the means of production are publicly owned and are used for the benefit of the workers is demonstrably not that. The fact that you don’t even understand such basic things shows how woefully clueless you are.

          • Jeremy List@hachyderm.io
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            1 year ago

            @yogthos China is a place where people who own capital exploit the working class to create more wealth for themselves. The fact you’re pretending otherwise makes you an anti-communist, an anti-materialist, or more likely both.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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              1 year ago

              Yup, that makes sense. That’s why China is pretty much the only place in the world where large amount of people are being lifted out of poverty, while the wealth of the rich is diminishing. You are very intelligent. You wouldn’t recognize materialism if it hit you in the face kid.

              • Jeremy List@hachyderm.io
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                1 year ago

                @yogthos China is a place where some people are being lifted out of poverty BY CAPITALISM BECAUSE CAPITALISM IS THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM IN PLACE THERE. Also while it is a lot of people it’s not as many as the official number because the poverty line itself is affected by factors other than people’s living conditions.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                  1 year ago

                  Interesting theory. Let’s see how it stands up in face of actual facts of the situation…

                  Household savings hit major highs across China https://www.chinadailyhk.com/hk/article/315229

                  If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty

                  The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15. https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty

                  90% of families in the country own their home, giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes/

                  The real (inflation-adjusted) incomes of the poorest half of the Chinese population increased by more than four hundred percent from 1978 to 2015, while real incomes of the poorest half of the US population actually declined during the same time period. https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23119/w23119.pdf

                  From 1978 to 2000, the number of people in China living on under $1/day fell by 300 million, reversing a global trend of rising poverty that had lasted half a century (i.e. if China were excluded, the world’s total poverty population would have risen) https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/China’s-Economic-Growth-and-Poverty-Reduction-Angang-Linlin/c883fc7496aa1b920b05dc2546b880f54b9c77a4

                  From 2010 to 2019 (the most recent period for which uninterrupted data is available), the income of the poorest 20% in China increased even as a share of total income. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.DST.FRST.20?end=2019&locations=CN&start=2008

                  By the end of 2020, extreme poverty, defined as living on under a threshold of around $2 per day, had been eliminated in China. According to the World Bank, the Chinese government had spent $700 billion on poverty alleviation since 2014. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/31/world/asia/china-poverty-xi-jinping.html

                  Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5dI

                  https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience

    • ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭@mastodon.social
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      1 year ago

      @jeremy_list @NoiseColor @yogthos

      [immediate transition is not only possible in theory but actually has some precedent]

      – How is it possible in theory, and what precedent does it have?

      [expecting a transitional state to actually continue the transition is even less rational than expecting Jesus to show up and start helping]

      Why?

      • Jeremy List@hachyderm.io
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        1 year ago

        @Radical_EgoCom @NoiseColor @yogthos Rosa Luxemburg explained all this better than I could and she wasn’t even an anarchist (but really take your pick of almost any non-ML communist theorist).
        But in summary: implementing communism inherently deprives counterrevolution of the capital it needs to function, so any delay in implementing communism is at best a strategic error and at worst an indication that the org has already become counterrevolutionary.

        • carl_marks[use name]@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          implementing communism inherently deprives counterrevolution of the capital

          How do you want to achieve this? Globally at once? Or bit by bit? Can you please Rosas work?

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