I’ve always been curious how fascism takes hold, and how people like Hitler, Stalin. etc rise to power. Do people not see what is happening? Shouldn’t hindsight, foresight and common sense kick in at some point? I used t think they were like mob bosses early on - anyone disagreeing with them ends up in a barrel, but surely were civilized and educated by now?
It seems the people don’t want to jeopardize their comfortable livelihoods and individual lives so expect the ‘powerful elected officials’ to do their bidding. After all, the public gave them the power to do just that. Otoh, the politicians don’t want to jeopardize their cushy jobs and accumulated power by challenging the majority, so are waiting for the public to start a jan6 situation so they can point and say, ‘see, the people are unhappy so we should act’.
It’s a shitstorm of no consequences and a man child hacking away at the country and no one seems to be doing anything meaningful. I’m literally watching fascism take place.
History/ psychology/ sociology majors care to chime in?
People get frustrated by circumstances they don’t necessarily understand. Fascists give them easy targets based on lies that feed the people’s prejudice to place their blame, and introduce more and more oppressive social restrictions based on those easy targets while riling up public fears and so on.
That is how lies about immigrant and minority crime have primed the US populace to be ok with the military occupying the nation’s capital based on blatant lies about crime rates.
I’ve noted that. Tighten wages, blame the immigrants. Turn sentiment against them, gradually dehumanize them, then use force to ship them out. Apply to group of choice - foreign or domestic. ‘Protecting rights’ is just a rallying cry and a tool for the politicians.
There’s an essay titled “Ur-Fascism” by Eco Umberto. It’s available online for free, you can Google it. It might give you some good insight on the subject. It’s mandatory reading, imo.
Big upvote for Umberto Eco. edit: may as well add some links.
ur-fascism & wikipedia
ecos website & to wikipedia page
The only person that will ever be on your true side is yourself. But you will be manipulated and taught otherwise by people that are scared of existence. In doing so they make you a pawn to calm their own existential anxiety.
Until people understand conquering their existential dread alone and finding peace in riding the wave of chaos of the universe, which is a constant, there will never be the peace that the others have claimed they will bring you.
Interesting, and yes, the systems of civilization are the artificial construct, restrict human nature and would be a natural part of the change process. I’m reminded of Loki’s statement to the crowd: ‘humanity yearns for subjugation’. ‘Mewling quims’ was icing on the cake. Maybe we’re not the alphas in the room.
People really like to blame outsiders for things, and are willing to believe they both deserve and have been denied everything and can have it on demand, even against all evidence. History and all the concerns that go into policy are actually uninteresting to most voters. Why fascism seems to bubble up in some periods more than others is more of a mystery.
It’s probably a manifestation of something that made evolutionary sense when we lived in small, sovereign bands. In a lot of ways humanity is way out of it’s depth, and we’re doing remarkably well considering.
Stalin is a different beast, FYI. Russia had always been an autocracy, he just happened to be well-placed to be in charge of it’s next incarnation after the revolution.
Yes, I gather that Stalin was the iron fist type, rising though pure ruthlessness, while Hitler and nazism was much more subtle, akin to what is happening in the us now. I’m currently working with a German guy, and am trying to.figure out how to broach the subject of how did common, decent people become so indoctrinated to an extreme right ideology.
I’ve never met an Israeli, but have met Iraqis under the Saddam regime. He felt it was more a going about his live thing, then the us came in and stirred shit up. I guess it’s just hard to imaging dehumanizing people to the degree you start to accept these ideals.
The psychology is just fascinating. Thanks for your input!
Not the whole answer, but alcohol and other drugs played a large part in the nazi regime (1).
My guess is that authoritarianism, just like drug use, is a response to depression. When you don’t (want to) realise the hurt is coming from within, instead you think the world is out to hurt you, then you want more and more control.
Now the drugs have been replaced by internet echo chambers? So you get the validation you want by people of the same opinion? Sounds dangerous.
The irony is just astounding.
I recently finished reading The Cult of Trump by Steven Hassan. It’s from 2019 and so depressing with how much has happened since then that’s not accounted for, but it was interesting insight into how people like that can accumulate a following. It might help answer your question.
Cool. Will look around for it. Thanks
Well you’re in luck because all you have to do is look around because facism is taking hold as we speak
Its weird because we basically all agree its bad but its happening anyway. I keep feeling like someone should do something, but then like I’m someone and cant really do anything.
Are we all just waiting for someone to do something about it?
This. It’s such a helpless, defeating feeling. If I looked out my window, and saw people rioting in the streets and fighting the police/ military, I’d immediately be engaging (and most likely immediately getting neutralized), if I had a company of like-minded individuals behind me I’d say let’s determine a target. But all of us, you, me, everyone, have the same mindset: If we try, we will win, but if I try, I will die.
As I’m sure many have already told you Stalin was not a Fascist. I’m not sure if you’re asking about fascists in specific and used a wrong example or about totalitarianism in general and used the wrong word.
For fascism in specific it’s usually about a common enemy and economic crisis that can be pinned on that enemy. But there are other stuff as well, there’s a great movie called “Die Welle” (The Wave) which is based on an actual scientific experiment called The Third Wave in which a teacher showed how fascism is able to take root.
For totalitarianism in general the answer is a lot more complex, each dictator grew to power their own way, but populism and fear mongering are common practices.
I asked about fascism in particular in the title, but certainly welcome input about other types of authoratarianism/ totalitarianism. It’s the psychology of how they slip though the public view and entrenches itself that I’m most interested in, because of what is happening around us atm.
During psychology class, we were taught about the authority figure dilemma, in that normal, decent people proceeded to inflict (acted) pain on another just because some person in a lab coat asked them to. Just trying to form my understanding from the myriad inputs, as to why the public and elected joes seem so unable/ unwilling to act.
I…. Love/Hate the fact that a lot of people complained that the ending of the book and the movie differed so much, and only few of those people actually understood the meaning of the book
…What book?
The wave / die Welle
That experiment got a book and a movie
Fascist propaganda is highly effective, and no one is immune to propaganda. Humans are emotional creatures, prone to being whipped up into a frenzy. You identify a(n imaginary) threat, and offer a very simple solution to it. The logic of whether or not the solution sounds morally correct doesn’t matter because 1.) The problem is made up anyways and 2.) The propagandist is appealing to the id, not the superego.
Remember that thinking is the greatest threat to fascism, exercise your brain as often as possible.
If you are up for a big, dense piece of 1950s social philosophy, Hannah Arendt’s “Origins of Totalitarianism” is a classic. It covers imperialism, racism, mob violence, antisemitism, propaganda, tolerance for lies, and the development of mythologies. It’s got a lot of ideas - many of which have been challenged. It’s also excessively wordy. One thing to keep in mind is that most of the components have been around for a long time – supremacist ideologies, conspiracy theories, propaganda systems.
Thanks. If anything, I have a lot of reading to catch up on!
Read the little book “The Wave” by Morton Rhue. He showed howit starts, with an impressive little example.
Bigotry, that’s how. People have problems, the economy is struggling. They need a scapegoat. So someone like Hitler or Trump convince them that all their problems are caused by jews or immigrants or LGBT people or some other minority group and that everything will be fixed by getting rid of that group
There are two things you’ll want to read to get an idea of how and why fascism happens. The first is the essay Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco. The second is the free ebook The Authoritarians by Dr Bob Altemeyer.
Between these two, you get a clear, measurable definition of what it means to be fascist and an explanation of the psychologies behind it.
It’s simple. Put greedy people in positions of power.
That’s communism. And capitalism. And every other government system.
Congratulations, you understood the assignment.
So all types of government lead to fascism?
No, humanity leads to fascism without the correct controls in place. It’s an unfortunate side effect of our “survival of the fittest” driving our evolution as a species. Since greed usually wins out, it was selected for in our species, and the only thing stopping it is our civility, which is rather new to our species as a whole.
And there’s no government type that has the correct controls in place?
No. There do not exist controls that will not be bypassed through human ingenuity.
So what’s the timeframe on turning to fascism? Looking at well over a few hundred years at least at this point.
Any political extremism is propagated by providing easy answers to complex problems.
Yes, but along the way, we’d expect there to be questions and common civility perhaps being a guide. It’s not happening, so I’m wondering why the masses and leaders sit and do nothing while it unfolds.
My impression is that 1/3 of the population is always ready to accept tyranny. On that topic, I have a couple of other suggestions that are easier reads than Arendt, and specifically about the usa:
- Who Goes Nazi (a short, almost fun essay)
- Huey Long is sometimes considered America’s fascist governor.
1/3 kinda sounds about right. Some are finding the system isn’t working for them, and want a change, no matter how drastic. The other group wants to control the system for their needs.
Read through the parts of 1. that I was allowed to by the paywall. Fascinated at how different the characters are (reached F and a half). Will try to find the rest. Thanks!
