Might help also to describe what you think feminism is, since it’s one of those terms that is overloaded.
I once had a physical therapist tell me she wasn’t a feminist because she thought women couldn’t be as physically capable as men when serving as soldiers, and seemed to believe feminism requires treating women exactly like men.
I told her I was a feminist because I believe in equal rights for men and women, an idea she did not seem so opposed to.
Nah.
For one, I don’t like a term that’s supposed to promote equality clearly favoring one side in its name.
For two, most feminists I’ve met genuinely hate men and think they’re owed superiority, not equality, for the treatment of women in the past.
How do you feel about Black Lives Matter as a name and slogan?
Do you think there might be a reason feminism is named that way?
Black Lives Matter is a fine name for what it supports.
I didn’t study the etymology of feminism, but in practice it has always resulted in fighting for women’s rights while ignoring or paying lip-service to men’s rights.
There’s no feminist platform that advocates for removing men from the draft or including women in it, for example. I don’t believe that the differences between men and women, especially today, are great enough to give any preference to one sex over the other. Most of us are suffering because we are poor.
From my experience, feminists will say feminism is about equality to fool people who don’t know any better into supporting a cause that is practically about female superiority. They believe it’s woman’s turn to be the oppressors and to them that is ‘fair.’
This is exemplified by how it’s socially acceptable (even encouraged) to make disparaging comments about men, but making similar comments about women will get you ostracized. You can’t say you’re for equality of the sexes if you laugh when somebody says “I hate all men” but get angry if someone else says “I hate all women.” Neither is acceptable, but feminists will disagree.
I like the Rebecca West quote: “I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.”
Yes, in the sense that I believe men and women should have equal rights. I suspect people who say they aren’t feminists have a different definition of it.
To be fair, the word feminist is super outdated, since it has the connotation of being for women because of the “femi”. Well… It kinda was during the feminist movements of the early 1900s, but that in itself was as a fight for equality.
Point is, I’d love a rebrand to something like “Equalist” or something better sounding but with the same connotations.
The term you’re looking for is an egalitarian.
I believe in equal rights and opportunities for all, be they man, woman, in between or none of the above.
But saying (and perhaps believing) one is a feminist and actually acting like one are often two different pairs of shoes. We all are confronted with so much discrimination, with so much bias, with so much misogyny, it takes active labour to actually behave like a feminist, because no matter how you think about yourself, at some point and to some degree, all that shit we get confronted with every day will rub off on us, and we have to understand that and constantly check ourselves so that it does not influence us in our thought patterns. Constant mental garbage collection, if you want.
That is true for all kinds of discrimination, no matter what it is based on.
FYI you can’t be a feminist if you pay for the SA and murder of other women.
women aren’t cows. cows aren’t women. and artificial insemination isn’t SA, it’s a veterinary procedure.
Well cows wouldn’t call themselves “women” no, but I’m sure they do have some gender expression that is apart from just their sex. I could have said females, but I don’t really like using that word.
These cows cannot consent to having someone shove a fist inside them, it is very much SA. I’m sure colonizers had the same mentality as you when they were SA Women of colour and indigenous women.
comparing indigenous people to animals is gross
Thinking just because someone has a different shaped body than you and isn’t as intelligent gives someone the right to SA them is gross.
The problem is you being so brainwashed to think it’s okay to abuse others that you forget indigenous people are animals. We all are.
indigenous people are animals.
kindly, leave me alone
That you think other animals are below you is the problem here. Don’t blame me for your human supremacy.
I haven’t made any such statements. please leave me alone
doors can’t consent to have your keys jammed in them either. the very concept of consent can’t be applied to cows or doors.
Cows are sentient, you comparing them to objects is exactly the kind of shit feminism fights against.
If a human had the same intelligence as a cow do you think it would be okay to SA them?
If a human had the same intelligence as a cow
I haven’t said anything about intelligence, or suggested sa is ever ok.
sentience has nothing to do with consent.
What is this referring to?
How dairy cows need to be pregnant in order to produce milk, so they’re artificially inseminated and kept pregnant throughout most of their lives?
Yes. They can’t consent and they are used like objects, only seen as a means of making milk and more cows.
I’ve always thought of women as people. Wild I know. Also I’m transitioning towards being one so y’know, some selfish desire for women’s rights and safety too.
K but once you get there, you’ll tell us if it turns out you’re not actually a person anymore, right?
Yes, as in “women deserve equal rights across the board”
No, as in “feminism is the synonym to and only valid kind of antisexism and every gendered issue should be seen exclusively through women’s struggle”
I’m here for the equality of men and women, and believe that only in cooperation, through consideration of issues on each side, we can efficiently combat sexism.
Feminism should not be “us vs them”. It should be one part of the larger circle that is looking at how we can improve things for everyone - women, men, and nonbinary people.
We should bridge the gap on all sides, so that whatever gender you are, you have equal possibilities in life, career, and everything else, you are safe and can build your life the way you want.
That means no one should be targeted by sexual harassment and exploitation. No one should be denied jobs or have lower salary based on arbitrary characteristics. No one should be forced to choose a binary gender if they’re neither. Kids should not be indoctrinated with traditional gender roles. Etc. etc.
And, honestly, I don’t think many will disagree here. Many of those who “do not support feminism” don’t mean they go against equality - they are rather concerned about a specific form of particularly loud online feminism pretending men are all evil and that there’s no related struggle on men’s end.
It should be one part of the larger circle that is looking at how we can improve things for everyone - women, men, and nonbinary people
Modern feminism does exactly that.
I get that people get hung up on the label, but other demographics’ issues are absolutely part of it. It’s called intersectionality.
The label is important, though, because as long as we call it all feminism, any conversation that does not explicitly target women audience may be maliciously hijacked. I’ve seen this happening in the wild a lot - people arguing that we steal feminism when talking about issues from another perspective.
Also, speaking of intersectionality, isn’t it weird for it to be a subsection of feminism again? Intersectionality commonly includes issues of race, disabilities, transgender individuals, and so on, and as such, men along with nonbinaries who struggle on each of the axis may not get adequate attention and representation under the umbrella of feminism, as again, it’s “about women” (it kinda is).
To me, antisexism should cover feminism, masculism (a term recently hijacked by bad actors, but initially coming from the same place as feminism - equality for all, focus on instances of male discrimination), a movement of nonbinary people.
Intersectionality should go above feminism, and above antisexism for that matter. It is about all struggles of all groups of people, and ultimately stands to cover it all - antisexism, anti-racism, trans inclusion, inclusion of people with disabilities, etc. etc.
I don’t think that’s necessarily malicious. Sounds like those people may have a thing to learn about feminism as well.
It’s not about being a “subsection”. It’s not a competition who’s on top. It’s about recognizing how these issues share a common core and many negative effects, and need to be addressed together rather than competing for attention. That’s exactly what intersectionality addresses.
As far as I’m aware, the inclusive movement that focuses on male issues in a way that regards itself in cooperation rather than competition with feminism (after men’s rights was successfully taken over by the right-wing) labels itself men’s liberation.
Fair enough - but malicious or not, it does cause issues and builds barriers to inclusion.
Talking about subsections is not about competition. It’s about unhealthy arrangement that, again, can easily be used to exclude people. It just doesn’t make sense to divide it this way.
Intersectionality talks about many issues, and one of them, part of it, is sexism. So, putting it under umbrella of feminism is like putting animals under the umbrella of bees.
My experience interacting with men’s liberation is mostly just men going 100% into misandric narrative that men are to blame for anything and everything. As one person underscored it under one such post, “if a woman struggles - it’s society’s fault. If a man struggles - it’s a man’s fault”. There’s no room there for not blaming men for the discrimination they receive.
Yes, and I don’t really feel the need to clarify or weaken that stance by carving a really specific definition or “but not this or that”.
I’m a feminist, take that as you will.
This is insane. Why is everyone redefining the feminist movement!? Why so many “this feminism but”? Feminism is the belief in and advocacy of political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.
Do you believe sexes should have equal rights in society? Yes? You’re a feminist. Don’t be afraid of the term. That means that you bought up the anti-feminist propaganda. It’s like going about saying “I’m against the genocide, but not the kind where I hate the jews or support Hamas or terrorist but I believe in not killing children but of course not the kind of belief where I’d attack israeli sold…” Like wtf is this. That’s the definition. Stop tiptoeing. Call it out when you see it. Help your fellow human beings and keep on with your life.
There should be a different word that doesn’t favor one side if it’s about equality.
Anyone who is tired of people misconstruing the meaning of the word ‘feminism’ should be trying to find a better word that means what they are trying to convey.
I can say I was long ago when it was roughly “women’s rights should be equivalent to men’s rights” in terms of personal, work, social values and features.
These days and especially in the last 10 years I don’t think the umbrella of feminism is large enough to encompass all of the discrimination I have seen through my time existing.
The long and the short of it is people’s rights should be similar when applicable, the same when possible.
Feminism as often defined:
the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state. Is something I agree with support.
I wouldn’t call myself a feminist because I think the word is basically broken. Too many people use it in a different way than this definition. Too many people think that if you are a feminist you have to agree with other things or you are not a feminist. I would describe myself as a humanist; I think.
I don’t know if I like words being hijacked/appropriated by people with extreme views. The weird semantic shift for words like “feminist” (or “nazi” actually now that I think about it) points to a deficit in the education system in our countries.
I disagree. I don’t think people started misusing feminism because they didn’t know what it means.
I am neither a Feminist, nor a Machista. However I feel like both genders have equal ability to do anything (except biological things, but that’s what science is for). One thing that gets on my nerves is the idea that society says that whomever stays at home is weak… Motherfucker, taking care or tiny humans, dumb animals and somehow keep a whole house clean and disinfected is as much work as any blue collar job (fuck, it might be even harder). On top of that my wife cooks amazing so whenever I can I treat her with whatever she wants whenever she wants it because she fucking earned it, because that’s why I’m the one working, and I know she would do the same if the roles where reversed.
If feminism is defined as equal rights for all things that are not gender relevant I agree. But there are a lot of really good exception, where it makes sense that we acknowledge differences. Like pregnancy, physical differences and so on. In short everything that can be equal should be.
I do believe gender is a social construct that’s becoming outdated. And that we shouldn’t have nor woman nor men, at all.
Make of that what you want.
The gender binary is becoming outdated, but gender expression is an important part of personal identity. Gender isn’t going away, the limiting cage of the pink/blue divide is.
I have my doubts over that. I think expression without label restrictions is more free and organic.
At the end a gender, any gender. Is a sum of behavioral characteristics. But there are too many characteristics that can be flip floped all over the place. And having those layers is oppressive towards people wanting to express outside that label expected set of characteristics. As much diverse layers as we want to create they will never be as infinite as the infinity of the behavioral human spectrum.
On a more political side I sometimes fear that gender expression are used to create dominance groups. “We are Z gender, and I’m the Z gender representative so I get power all over these people”. It’s easier to dominate groups when they are categorized and segregated. I know is the main big thing about identity politics, which is somehow hot in some places left agenda. But I’m very against it. Only identity that matter to me is human and everything else it not segregable to me.
At the end a gender, any gender. Is a sum of behavioral characteristics.
This doesn’t really align with my experience of gender. Which is to say, I think what you’re describing here is a large part of gender, but it doesn’t encapsulate it completely. I’m trans, yet I’ve never had a strong sense of “femininity” or “masculinity”. I don’t really “get” gender expression, except in so far as it’s a tool to have people see my gender. I certainly don’t have a sense of it being tied to my internal experience of my gender. Yet for all of that, I’ve always had a strong sense of gender.
In a genderless world, I don’t think we would all be genderless in the strict sense of the term, but more, our internal experiences of gender would be assumed to be unique, and as such, not really something that can be grouped in to labels and compared to other folks. In this world, what we now call gender expression, would just be self expression.
Gender expression is something people should be able to choose for themselves, including in fluidity, flux, plurality, and however said gender does or does not conform to social expectation. I’m personally “cis,” I’m a man, but I also make it clear that people can use they/them to refer to me and that’s fine. I see myself as a “less masculine man.” That doesn’t mean feminine-presenting men need to use they/them, either. Pronouns are personal, and I feel most comfortable presenting myself this way. If my gender were taken from me, I would be less comfortable. It’s a form of self-expression.
Thinking about it, I believe in equal rights, but would prefer not to be called a feminist, because it implies preference to women. Men have some rights where they are worse off than women, like military service, or - at least here in Poland - differing retirement age.
Also, at a certain point, because there’s biological and cultural (for a long time, if not forever) ups and downs to each gender, doing equal rights would then be unfair to whichever gender has it worse, which will certainly be subjective. I’m mostly for it in obvious bullshittery like salaries for the same job done or abortion rights, but at some point like maternity and paternity leave, I’m not giving it much thought.
(Also, I’d totally punch a woman anytime I’d punch a man, which is never anyways, but I think most people would call that feminism anyway)
